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DISCUSS2008 Resolutions of the Televangelists
| 01/03/2008
Pat Robertson: I will not make delusional predictions for the coming year unless at least one of my previous predictions at least partially came true. I will repeat this resolution three times a day so I don't forget it.
Joel Osteen: I resolve to frown at least 15 minutes each day so my smile will look genuine the rest of the time. But I will do it hanging upside down in my gravity boots so that the frown looks like a smile.
Kenneth Copeland: This year I will speak into existence a world in which Senator Grassley is a teensy-weensy bumblebee bat, one of the world's most endangered species. Then I will suck him into the engines of my $20 million Cessna Citation as I fly off to the Fiji islands.
Benny Hinn: Whenever Jesus Christ appears to me visibly onstage, or when I hear his voice audibly as if he were standing right beside me, I will pinch myself, and then have one of my aides pinch me too. Then I will have another aide pinch that aide. And so on.
Joyce Meyer: I will upgrade my $23,000 commode with a bidet, but switch to a lower grade of toilet paper. And each time I lambast the concept of separation of church and state as being unconstitutional and "a deception from Satan," I will re-read the Constitution and place a call to the Evil One, just to check my facts.
Creflo Dollar: I will repeat five times a day, "The decreasing value of U.S. currency this year does not reflect on my personal self-esteem." But I'll still keep trying to change my name to Creflo Krugerrand.
Jan and Paul Crouch: We resolve to simplify our lifestyles away from reflecting the glittering Versailles of the "Sun King" Louis XVI to the more ecologically sensitive regal ostentation of Restoration England under Charles II. We will call this "going green."
Hal Lindsey: I resolve to be even more confrontational about radical Islam in order to obscure the failure of my 37 years of end-time predictions and remind people that I still exist. Darn, I miss the Soviet Union!
Rod Parsley: If I ever say "Man your battle stations! Ready your weapons! Lock and load--for the thirty, forty liberal pastors who filed against our ministry with the Internal Revenue Service!" again, just shoot me.
Randy and Paula White: We resolve to remember to pay for private jets we say we're going to purchase, instead of coughing up $112,000 in damages for cancelling the deal. And we resolve to place in our bio only those doctorates we actually earned, and to claim only doctorates at schools that actually exist. Oh, and we resolve to make sure there are no pesky lawyers around when we scam an old lady out of her life savings. Amen.
Bishop Earl Paulk: I will fast from sex scandals the entire year. Instead I will promote my dominionist theology and the belief that Jesus will not return until the whole world has heard about me.
Richard Roberts: I resolve to cancel my wife's cell phone contract, skip the annual home remodeling at university expense, return her red Mercedes convertible and white Lexus SUV, and see about the possibility of shredding the document-shredding machine. Oh yeah, and find a way to unplug the Unblinking Eye of Sauron from the Oral Roberts Prayer Tower and take it with me.
John Hagee: I resolve to squeeze my corpulent, jiggling torso into a barrel and roll from San Antonio to the Holy Land to support the State of Israel. Who will join me?
Good article Skip! I'm most familiar with Copeland so I'll pick on him. Kenneth Copeland is a word of faith heretic. He really believes that he is a "little god." Makes you wonder why he needs a jet? Why doesn't he just astral project himself to any location around the world? Sure would save some jet fuel! His theology is nothing more than recycled garbage taught to him by his mentors Kenneth Hagin and E.W. Kenyon. Copeland also keeps the Grecian formula people in business. The older he gets the darker his hair is! The rest of the people in your article are cancers upon the Christian faith!
I giggled. Am I going to hell? And if so, could one of these indulge me outta there? I understand Paula White has loaned God some money, so maybe He owes her a favor...
Don't forget Hagee's second New Years resolution: "Deny Jesus is the Messiah"
I didn't giggle. I guess I'm a bit saddened by the state of things on the whole and a bit by the monotonous type of sarcasm used to ridicule this sad state.
Isn't there a better way?
What would be the better way? What would be your suggestion?
These folks deserve far worse than sarcasm, Anonymous... How many thousands of desperate people trusted these snakes and gave money they couldn't afford, to finance their excesses???
I vote for Anonymous for the next President, awesome!! These Word Faith moneychangers need the rhetoric. What a joke, paying to hear Joel Osteen.... Doesn't he have more money than God now?
Yes Anonymous,snakes is a good description for these people. To the other Anonymous, if you don't like sarcasm,then this site is not for you! Yes it is sad that people like Copeland have enriched themselves on the backs of people who for the most part can't afford it! It is sad that people have been snookered by Copeland's "pie in the sky" theology! I don't have a problem with wealth,I do however have a big problem with the way these people have gained theirs! Their money and things only scratch the surface! The entire "word of faith" theology they teach is defective. It makes God out to be some incompetent nitwit who can't do anything unless man allows Him to! It's terrible teaching stay away from it!
Every one of these harlots and charlatans are theologically Calvinists. 'Word of Faith' is the ruse to deceive to get trust to defraud monetarily and spiritually. We need to see Calvinism for what is and does? The people of Geneva learned the hard way, just like these followers will.
As a reformed Christian (call me Calvinist) I MUST take issue with you. First of all, WOF is about as far away from reformed theology as one can get. Perhaps you've forgotten that Calvinism teaches 5 points (to counter the 5 put forth previously by Arminius) and that all 5 hang together. If you want to pick on predestination, go ahead, but apart from the other 4 points, it won't make sense. Conversely, most Protestants would say they are 4 point Calvinists if pushed to it, but that won't fly either; again, they all hang together.
At any rate, I don't care to convert you to Calvinistic theology, but do not confuse WOF with it!
The-Dudester: You say of these people to be thelogically calvinists. I've realized, after reading a little about reformation and XVI century history, that "prosperity theology" didn't start in the 80's, but it started with the idea that predestinated people should be successfull in thier business, so dutch calvinists applied it as they became successfull with business and trades.
By the way, at this tima I'm reading a book by Joyce Meyer called "How to succeed at being yourself" (My mother recommended it to me). I recognize it has confronted me, but I don't understand why does she think that success is related with big mansions, jets and lot of wealth.
Goodbye from Colombia
Just because some who claim to follow a school of thought abuse its teachings for their own benefit doesn't mean that is what the school taught. Your argument holds no air.
Ok, maybe this is a discussion over just one of five calvinist points. It wasn't my intention to be mean. I'm just wondering how do the "propserity gospel" is so quietly related to the "prosperity-predestinated" held and supported by calvinist traders (not necesarilly by calvinist theology).
On Abuses in Power by Anyone with Power – A nonprofit organization called Pro Publica has announced it will staff 24 investigative journalists in early 2008 in Manhattan to work on “truly important” news stories with “moral force.” The editor-in-chief will be Paul Steiger who formerly was editor at large for The Wall Street Journal. Steiger says Pro Publica will be “dedicated to reporting on abuses of power by anyone with power.” Steiger says he hopes this effort will shore up investigative reporting, which has declined in funding because the turmoil of new technology. Perhaps Pro Publica might be interested to learn that Kenneth Copeland Ministries admits it spends only 34% of donations on television and media. Where does the rest go? Benny Hinn Ministries says it spends only 52% of donations on media ministry. Where does the rest go? Perhaps: to build mansions for snakes and such, or buy luxury cars, or fuel luxury jets, or to fund all the luxury lifestyle perks and opacity the IRS – and an outraged public – says non-profit organizations must forgo. To recommend possible stories of televangelist abuse of power, Pro Publica's e-mail contact is dick.tofel@propublica.org. from www.inthatdayteachigns.com
By the way: Why doesn't Creflo dollar change his name into Creflo Euro? I mean, because of the devaluation of US$
Pastor Melissa Scott, pornographer widow of the huckster par none Dr. Gene Scott, was
skipped over, but is small potatoes on her throne a short 3 years. She relishes heaping
cruelty onto her staff and volunteers in addition to the standard fare of the above televangelists.
Pastor Melissa Scott hasn't, and wouldn't, make any positive New Year's Resolutions. The evil
domata thus far has only voewed and demonstrated further coercion on giving her money and
free time in exchange for spiritual salvation and rewards.
Clarification : Pastor Melissa Scott, pornographer widow of the huckster par none
Dr. Gene Scott, hasn't, and wouldn't, make any positive New Year's Resolutions. The
evil domata thus far has only vowed and demonstrated further coercion on giving her
money and free time "in exchange" for spiritual salvation and rewards.
Addendum " give her money and free time IN HOPES OF exchange for spiritual rewards.
In the Pastor Scott book of life, your account is only as good as your giving to her at the
moment. You have to stay "plugged in" to HER by giving money and time (that's the only
show of faith per Scott teachings) . . . . . . . .
What a gathering of "slimey snakes". These people have no vision of Eternity
Good people and friends,
The only standard is Christ, not any form of a church or religion. What He started, and others changed, has remained unchanged since His death. Why are you surprised why anyone takes advantage of "religion", since it's been going on continuously since the 1st century. If they can sell it, they will, but only if you'll buy it. When everyone stops buying the "quick fix" and turns to the teachings of Christ, all of the charlatans will be out of jobs
Dude, Your comments about the WOF being Calvinism could not be further from the truth. The whole point of the original 'faith' movement from Kenyon and others, was that Jesus came to give life more abundantly. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Now, I would rather have faith and believe that God wants the best for me rather than take the position He wants to cripple me to teach me to appreciate walking. The problem with this thinking is that when you are in trouble you don't know whether to duck or hug when you come to God. What the televangaratans have done has not gone unnoticed by the only one that matters, so don't fret over them. The problem in this country is one group believes the Bible is the Word of God, the other believes it isn't. Now, fit your theology into one of these groups. If you chose the latter, you can make up anything and profess any doctrine you like. If you chose the first, then you have to rightly divide the Word of God. Because if YOU don't, someone else will do it for you. If you are the type of person who is swayed by people of perceived influence with God then you will find deception and heartbreak. Enjoy!
Ok, maybe I should recognize I was wrong at trying to make a comparation between calvinism and prosperity gospel. Now I'm wondering if someday those white calvinists (also known as WASPs) will recognize how much pain have they inflicted to the rest of the world, through their own manipulation of the Bible (remember, were calvinists who started apartheid, kkk, etc etc etc).
But well, who am I for criticise them? Just another black-haired latinamerican.
Saludos desde Colombia
By the way, I'm latin but I'm not catholic. (just clarifyng)
I would like to comment on whoever started the whole conversation about Calvinism. It is historically accurate that Calvinist theology was used to support a prosperity gospel amongst our puritain forfathers. That is exactly how the whole idea of the "Puritan (or Protestant) work ethic" came into exsistence. The puritans applied the idea of predestination to wealth by teaching that anyone who was truely predestined and elect by God would be able to prove it by their wealth and prosperity. Therefore, wealth became one of the signs that "proved" a person's election.So people would work extra hard in order to earn wealth in order to prove their election to others in the puritan community. This shaped the type of attitude we currently have in American society, only now it has been secluarized. People still dedicate their whole lives and almost all their time towards earning wealth, but it is no longer done to prove election; it is now just secularized marterialism and social standing that are the influencing factors. These facts are pretty well documented in history books as well as books on the social sciences; it is also a common teaching in college freshmen and sophmore history and sociology classes.
I feel bad the way some people clamped down on you for pointing out this Calvinist distortion, and I find it interesting that it was denied by some of those who responded. I can't say I'm suprised though. In my experiences with many CAlvinist I have found that they seem to think Calvin was inerrent and that all calvinist where also inerrent; so I've noticed that lots of them tend to get upset when you try to tell them that their 5 points may not have the simplistic answers to all the difficult questions in the universe, or that many of their beliefs were used to promote social injustices. Why is it so hard for Calvinists that so much of their theological beliefs just do not seem to make any logical sense, or that their may be serious errors in their belief system?
Matt,
As one of the "accused" in your post, I'll pose you a challenge:
I'll agree that your statements have merit if you can give me ONE source document to prove that an actual calvinist teacher said/wrote one of these things. I don't mean the writings of some random anti-calvinist, or the writings of someone who claimed to be a calvinist twisting doctrine to fit his sin (if we go down that road, every Christian teaching in the world has been corrupted by folks doing "God's work"); instead, I mean an ACTUAL respected teaching authority in the calvinistic camp.
Doug,
I am not saying that Martin Luther or Calvin specifically said that wealth was God's sign that someone is elect. If fact, I have a lot of respect for Martin Luther and Calvin, even though I am worlds apart from a belief in the traditional understanding of Calvinist theology. In fact, I have often heard from other teachers and pastors that Luther's and Calvins' beliefs were not really all that "calvinist" in the fairly modern understanding of the term. So, I can still respect Luther and Calvin even if I do not believe in the organized dogma of calvinist theology.
However, from my education, it was pretty much common knowledge that the Puritains were strong believers in Calvinist theology.It is also common knowledge, from many of the books I had to read in college history and sociology classes, that the Puritians used Calvinist theology and applied it to issues of prosperity and wealth. I am not sure what you are suggesting when you are asking for source documents from calvinist teachers that prove this connection between the calvinist belief in election and a belief that a sign of God's election is a person's prosperity and wealth. If, by asking for a source document from a calvinist teacher, you are expecting me to find a quote directly from Calvin or Luther that outlines this elect/prosperity theology then I honestly do not think I could find that. However, I am sure sources could be cited that document how the puritains belief in election and predestination influenced their belief that wealth was a sign of God's favor and election. If you thought I was suggesting that Calvin and Luther shared this puritian belief then I should have been clearer, because that was not what I was suggesting. What I was trying to suggest is that it is historically accurate that the puritans (Who had strong Calvinist beliefs)were influential in promoting this belief; from my education in a very Calvinist christian high school it is very easy for me to see how the puritians could come to this conclusion and spread this belief
I must admit I am not a history major. My degree is actually in English secondary education, so I can't say that I have done any thesis project or dissertation on this issue we are discussing. I am merely speaking from my background knowledge in various history and sociology courses I had to take; although I have the feeling that the puritians' belief in wealth as a sign of election was even brought up in various discussions in my American Literature classes. So, I would have to confer with some historians inorder to satisfy your question. Offhand, I remeber that sociologist Max Weber talked about the connection between the calvinist belief in election and prosperity in his work, "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism."
As I said in the beginning of my reply, I am not a Calvinist. I know a lot about Calvinist theology from the in depth bible classes at my Calvinist prep school, but it has never seemed very plausible to me. I cannot believe that a God who loves the whole world, a God who died for the sins of the world, and a God who desires that all people would be reconciled to himself would abitrarily decided to create certain people to torture and destroy in order to show off his glory and power, and another small group of priviledged individuals that God chose to create for salvation. Furthermore it is incomprehensible to me that a creator God, who spent billions of years to mold his creation would find glory in the fact that a majority of his creation would ultimately be burned and destroyed forever. There is no artist who gets pleasure from destroying their work, and if God is an artist then I don't think it makes sense that God would willingly create specific unelect people that he would ultimatly destroy and torture to show off his own glory and power. So, aside from the whole elect/prosperity gospel debate the whole calvinist understanding idea of election is unbelieveable to me. If election is true, and if it is true that God died for the sins of the world and desires that all would be saved, then I have to believe that Christ's work on the cross has already atoned for all sin, and that in the end ALL of his creation will be reconciled to himself. The only other option is to believe in a theology of complete free will.
I certainly would not accuse you or all calvinist of supporting a theology of election that supports this idea of wealth as a sign of God's election; and I do think it would be unfair to generalize and assume that all Calvinists preach a false prosperity gospel. I am simply pointing out that historically Calvinism (specifically amongst the Puritans) has been used to promote such beliefs, and rather than denying that fact it would be better to acknowledge it and admit that so often our faith and our theological beliefs have been used for abuse. If you have read Donald Miller's "Blue Like Jazz", it is like that chapter where he describes how his ministry built a confession booth on their college campus in order to confess to their fellow college students that so often the Christian faith has been used for abuse rather than good. I think it is better to admit and acknowledge how our belief systems have been ill used rather than trying to deny the fact.
Wow, dude (I know you're not the dudester!); that was quite a reply. To be honest, I don't know enough about Puritan history to affirm or deny your assessment; so I'll believe you until proven otherwise. All I'm saying is that anyone can twist anything to fit their liking (witness the bastardization of the gospel by the prosperity gospel folks of any denominational stripe as evidence), but that doesn't mean the original teaching contained that dogma. So, it is possible to be a Calvinist without subscribing to the perversions some may (or may not) have attached to it.
To your point about election. Your argument is the same one I usually encounter when debating this issue with an Arminian (BTW, I was raised Baptist, so I know the other arguments as well); namely, that God is being unfair to create beings for destruction. My succinct reply would be to simply pose the only other alternatives I can think of and see how they compare:
1. God lacks the foreknowledge (or simply "chooses" not to use it-an even less logical argument) and so therefore creates humanity hoping, with wringing of hands, that all will "choose" him. Leaving aside all the verses I could cite (I'm sure you're familiar with them) about dead people being unable to choose, this scenario depicts God as less than divine, in my opinion. Worse, this makes God a craps shooter; he creates all with the knowledge (again, I reject the idea that he somehow suspends his ability in this arena) that some will NOT choose him, and be subjected to eternal separation...how is this any different than divine election?
2. Mans' will supercedes that of God because he can reject God, who wants to be accepted.
3. All will be saved; an idea clearly at odds with the totality of scripture.
Basically, I hold all these ideas untenable. If God is supreme, then his will holds sway.
Yes, I've read, and very much liked, Blue Like Jazz. I've briefly met Miller and he seems like a genuinely nice guy. Not sure what his book has to do with our present topic though.
They left out Jesse Duplantis and his EIGHTEEN MILLION DOLLAR CITATION JET that God personally told him to buy...with OPM, other people's money.
You also forgot Jesse's farcical book about going to Heaven! Thats how you make money,write a book claiming to go to Heaven! What a liar!
Do most TV preachers respect their donors and viewers? I doubt it.
At least William Miller called it quits after the second “Great Disappointment”
If only Pat Robertson would do the same.
I wonder how this tongue wagging will be judged? I do not pretend to have the answer . . . it is just a question.
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Wow, cool man, big thanks! http://amoogcnrep.com
why do we fuss...........we can do nothing about it,,can we?
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